[00:00:06] Welcome to the Grow Ortho Podcast. I am one of your hosts, Zach Dykes, joined by Dr. Bryce Gilliam, 2024's 40 Under 40, America's Top Young Dentist, co-host of the TV show Making Modern available on Max, and owner and operator of Elevation Orthodontics. Welcome to the show, Dr. Bryce. What's up, my man? Glad to be here.

[00:00:29] Guys, we got something super, super exciting for all of our orthodontists, our future orthodontists coming out of residency. So let's jump into it. Today, we're not talking about brackets. We're talking about you, how to sell yourself to employers who will fight over you like the kids over the last cosmic brownie. I know I'd fought a kid over a cosmic brownie. So, Dr. Bryce, let's jump into this.

[00:00:55] Yeah, man. The ortho world is competitive, right? So this is a great time for us to, you know, make sure that we kind of tell these young orthodontists that it's not about the grades and the shiny degrees. That really won't cut it alone. We really want to make sure that you market yourself, that you put yourself out there as the best candidate for a future employer, whether that's a corporate job or that's a private practice.

[00:01:20] Yeah, because every employer wants someone who's going to show up, communicates clearly, solves problems, works well with others, takes an initiative, adapts fast and stays professional and especially knows their stuff. And if you've got the degree, you definitely know how to do the stuff, but also fits the team vibe and actually gets results.

[00:01:42] That's what every employer and especially for a orthodontist that everyone wants to work for, they're going to be looking for those rock stars that are coming out of residency. Yeah, and it's my goal today to kind of explain what it takes to be that rock star, what it means to stand out, right? And so I'm really excited about this. So let's jump into that. So like I know orthodontists aren't just looking to hire anyone. What are they looking for?

[00:02:08] Yeah, they're looking for problem solvers. They're looking for team players. They're looking for those people who most importantly are revenue generators. I think that that's one big thing that you always need to remember as an associate doctor, that you are there to make the practice more money. You know, I've said on both sides of the table and trust me, you know, is right when you walk into the interview, right when you walk into the office, they're sizing you up.

[00:02:35] So you want to make sure that you have a couple of of key traits that they are really going to jump on. And, you know, I'm going to kind of list those for you right now. You need to have clinical confidence. You need to know that you can we can handle those impacted canines without blinking. Like we want it to be so clear that you are clinically competent that it makes it a no brainer. So that's one thing that they're looking for. Another thing that they're looking for is your people skills.

[00:03:02] People don't care about your GPA and spoiler alert. They don't actually care what school you went to unless you went to school in school like Harvard. Then everybody loves that. Right. Patients and parents are really looking for you to listen to them, to hear what they have to say and then know that they're cared for. It goes back to that adage. People don't care how much, you know, until they know how much you care.

[00:03:26] It's crazy because employers know this as well. And they want to make sure that you're able to articulate those things back to the parents, back to the patient to know that you're able to treat them in a great way and keep their practice going successfully. I know that's just like this cliche kind of thing. It's like, you know, pretty much anybody in the medical field. Well, I got into this to change lives like like that feels very like kitschy and all of that. But like when you hear that, how does that make you feel?

[00:03:55] Yeah, I think that that it's it's as a as an employer. Right. When I when I hear that, it's so common. It's so it's so over overdone. You just kind of kind of blow it off. You don't even think about it as a real thing. Yes, we have all, you know, started this career because we want to change lives. But I would say if you want to change lives, you could go be a fireman or a nurse or any of those things. You'll change lives. You'll be a school teacher. You can change lives.

[00:04:24] So it's not necessarily a good example of why you wanted to do this career. Be creative, be yourself, but be creative and make it your own and say something that's clever. I think one of the most impressive ones is when a doctor, you know, and this, of course, is only if it applies to you, if they've had some experience where, oh, yeah, I got in a bicycle accident when I was a kid. And only because of my orthodontist was I able to have a good smile.

[00:04:54] You know, I used to get made fun of or whatever like that resonates a lot more than I'm here to say change lives or what. You know what I mean? Like that's like, OK, all right, let's move on. You know, but going a little bit past that, talk about business sense. Like should like this, these future hires, should these looking to be employed, should they have some sort of business sense?

[00:05:16] I mean, that's a great question. It's not that you need to know how the business runs, but you do need to understand that the practice isn't charity. You need to understand that you got to keep the chairs full. You want to get the bills paid and remember that you're an asset to the actual practice. The employer is using you as an investment that they're investing into their practice, similar to like an iTero scanner or intraoral scanner.

[00:05:44] They want to increase either productivity, they want to increase efficiency, or they want to scale their practice. So make sure that you're thinking about those things when you're trying to sell yourself or make yourself valuable. You have to think of it this way. You have to make more than you cost. You have to be turning some sort of profit because they're going to look at it when times get hard. It's like, oh, well, is Dr. So-and-so actually making more than he's costing me?

[00:06:11] The more that you can start thinking about that, the better you'll be, whether it's you're going to stay as an associate for a while or if you're going to just do this as a stepping stone to open your own practice. Because you can start thinking like a business right when you start becoming an orthodontist. Are there any pitfalls that these residents going into the field, are there anything that they should avoid in this kind of first section that we're in? Yeah, I think that there's a couple of things. You just need to be yourself.

[00:06:39] You don't have to pretend like you're every other orthodontist. I remember whenever I first came out of dental school, I thought that I needed to wear these button-up shirts and I needed to wear khaki pants or whatever it is. And that's fine if that's you, right? But if it's not you, don't portray that. Just be true to yourself and you'll be so much more approachable. And I think that they'll really find that you're intriguing that way. Yeah, you're not faking this.

[00:07:09] There's the fake it till you make it, but people can get a sense very, very quickly if you feel genuine or if you feel like you're a cookie cutter. It's like, oh, they're trying to fit this mold. So I think all of those things are super insightful. And if someone stopped the podcast right now, they could go and crush it. But I want to go a little bit further. And let's talk about what employers are looking for.

[00:07:35] What can young docs do before they even start submitting their resumes? That's a great question. So really what we need to do is we really need to focus on coming up with a killer portfolio, right? So there's no more, you know, how it was back in my day when you could just send in your CV and maybe it was kind of cutting edge to put a picture of yourself up there. And then everything was based off a handshake. Now they really want to see like your digital portfolio.

[00:08:02] If you bring before and afters or if you bring a case study or even a short video of you treatment planning your actual case, that gives the doctor all the clinical information that they really need to know. And I think every employer would eat that up, right? It shows that you're prepared. It shows that you can like you're in with the times. But then it's also probably something that they haven't seen before. So it's a really good practice to do that.

[00:08:27] And you're setting yourself up that, hey, you're not going to have to pull me into the now. It's like I'm here with you. And I think you can go a step further and start leveraging social media. That's a really good point as well. When you start thinking about that, you know, it's really important. If you're an influencer, if you are a if you've written blogs for even your LinkedIn, if it's really nice and you've written, you know, orthodontic blogs, those are things that you should talk about.

[00:08:55] As far as being an influencer, I'm not saying that you need to go dress up in your white coat and do TikTok dances unless that's what you do. But really, if you're an influencer, practices are looking for that and they see that as an advantage. So use that to your advantage. Yeah. And it's a great way to leverage an audience, you know, especially if your influence is in that town that you're in. If people are seeing that, that is a great way to pull that in.

[00:09:25] It's like, hey, I've got this following. It is localized. It's not just, you know, spread all over the place. And that's going to be like, oh, well, if they come and join my practice, then they can influence their followers to come and get treatment here. And that would be a huge play for you coming into that practice. You're not just going to be sucking resources. You're actually already delivering value. That's right. You are a value add from the beginning with that. Talk about networking.

[00:09:54] I know a lot of people are like, oh, networking. It's this buzzword that a lot of people use. But how can our future orthodontists network like a pro? Yeah, I think networking is the most important thing in life, honestly. What you want to do for orthodontic terms, you want to go to some conferences. Local conferences are great. Shadow local orthodontists. But when you do that, make sure that you take the time to send thank you notes that aren't generic.

[00:10:22] You want to build a relationship. That's all networking is about. And then, like, for instance, I met my first mentor. He came to one of our programs and he was talking to us about some orthodontic thing. I don't even remember what it is now. And then me and him just kind of hit it off because we found a common denominator, something that linked us together. And then we had some coffee and then it was over after that. It was like a great relationship.

[00:10:48] We built this really, like, good, healthy mentorship. And you know what I didn't have to do? I didn't have to ask for it. Like, he saw that, you know, I had potential or I was intrigued by things. And so he would freely give me information. And it was so helpful. And I think that that's what you should strive for. You shouldn't go out and ask for someone to be your mentor because I think that can get awkward.

[00:11:13] But really just build these relationships and, you know, you got to step out of your comfort zone to sometimes build them. But find something in common with people and then you should be in a good spot. When you ask someone to be your mentor, do you really have anything to offer them or are they just pumping into you? You know, it needs to be a give-give. Like, you are giving as much as they're giving. You know, you're just not getting, getting, getting because that seems greedy.

[00:11:44] And you know this, Dr. Bryce. If someone came and asked you to, you know, mentor them and you're juggling all of these things, you know, you got a TV show, you got a practice, you got all of these things. That's going to be like, man, and you do this podcast, you don't have the time. And that's another effort for you to go out and try to help somebody. Yeah, that's right. And you don't want to feel like it's just, like you said, it's a one-way street, right?

[00:12:13] You want it to be something that is more relationship-based. And I find that a lot of times young orthodontists, they get so excited and they want to find a mentor so much that they'll ask for it. And that, it just feels slightly like I'm getting used. Like, you want to know all the information that I worked really, really hard for and then you haven't provided any value to me.

[00:12:38] So, as you're going through this process, remember, give something back. You may not be able to give back knowledge about, you know, X, Y, and Z as far as orthodontics or this longevity of a career. But maybe you know something about social media. Maybe you know something about how trends are moving. So, give some feedback. Just because someone comes to your residency and talks, like, it's not a knee-jerk reaction. I need them as my mentor. You need to check the vibe. Like, you check the vibe with your mentor. It's like y'all started gelling.

[00:13:08] I, you know, on my side of things, like, I was a band director before this. I, you know, I saw people, like, every time we had someone come in and talk, people were like, oh, I've got to have them as my mentor or whatever. And it's like, nah, dude. I, like, he's smart, but I don't want to, you know what I mean? Like, I don't want him as my mentor. So, you got to kind of figure that out. And it's like, use, like, I know in larger cities, they're like orthodontic, like, groups and everything.

[00:13:34] So, like, figure out that networking side of things because, like, yeah, AAO happens once a year. That's a great thing to go to. But if you have something that's on a more consistent basis where you can learn new techniques and practice management, whatever it is, that is a great way to get started before you ever even step into someone's practice. Yep. Spot on, man. So, let's talk about the interview. It's time for the interview. How do you go in there and ace that thing?

[00:14:04] So, I'm just going to assume that you are going to dress the part, right? You're going to look the part. You're going to do all those things. So, we're making that assumption. But what I really want you to do, and these are little tricks that you can do, is I want you to research the practice. I want you to know their vibe. I want you to know if they're a boutique family practice. Like my office, it's an adult-only office, right? Or if they're a corporate machine.

[00:14:28] You want to make sure that you know the vibe of the practice so you can tailor your pitch to them, right? I remember one time, I absolutely bombed this interview because I went in and they asked me a couple of questions about some class two correctors. And I didn't realize that the orthodontist had his own kind of custom class two appliance. And he was so passionate about this thing and I had no idea what it was.

[00:14:57] And so, right then, you know, I kind of had a disconnect. And I realized it probably wasn't the best place for me if he was so passionate about that. But nonetheless, that was one of the things that I remember that sticks out. So, prepare like it's finals week. Yeah. And I think going into that is learning how to build rapport and build it quickly.

[00:15:22] Because rapport, the only thing that it means is really all people prefer others that resemble themselves. So, knowing what they are passionate about, just like you're talking about, knowing their value system if it is an adult-only. You're not coming in there and be like, oh, yeah, let's get Dippin' Dots in here. And then we can have like these toys like, oh, did you see the new Xbox or whatever? Like you're not going at it in that way. You know, that high energy. It's probably a little bit more chill, a little bit more laid back, more mature.

[00:15:52] You know, it's like knowing how you need to present yourself but doing it in a genuine way. So, rapport is huge. Yeah. And I think another quick little tip is match their energy. Whatever energy they have, you match it. So, if they're real calm and subdued, you match that. If they're really upbeat, then you match that as well. And then match their body language, right?

[00:16:17] Because people present the way that they want you to present. So, make sure that you kind of mimic that. Those are just little tricks that will help you build that rapport a little bit quicker. And you can tell that from looking at their website and watching their videos. If they've got videos on their website, you know, talking about the practice or whatever. If they do some YouTube stuff, you can kind of get that vibe before you ever step in for that interview. But let's talk about showcasing your wins.

[00:16:46] How can, you know, a resident going out showcase what they've done in school? All right. Great. So, as a practicing orthodontist, we all look at you guys as whatever work that you've done has been basically done by the professors. And you were just acting as their assistants. So, really, you need to focus in on a couple of key cases and talk about how you either fixed it or how the parent or the patient reacted once you fixed the situation.

[00:17:16] Like, for instance, if you've done a really good job on a 14-year-old patient and got them their open bite closed in, you know, 18 months or whatever it may be. And the parents sent you some cookies. Talk about that. Explain why that is important and how you built that rapport. That will go a lot longer than you just talking about school and rambling on about it for a long time. Because it's showing that you know how, one, know how to do the job.

[00:17:44] Two, that it is a successful thing and that there was an actual connection that the parents loved that, that you helped their kid. And that's going to show that, hey, you're going to be able to do that for my practice. That's right. The idea is for them to envision you doing that same thing right alongside them. So I know a lot of times in the interview they open up, like, do you have any questions?

[00:18:09] What are some ways to kind of flip the script and ask the orthodontist some questions that would actually stop them in their tracks? You should start asking them, you know, how do you support new orthodontists to build their patient base? Because that does a couple of things. Like if you just said, hey, doc, what would you do to help me build my patient base if I was working in your practice? That makes them think, one, that you're going to have some longevity, right? You're going to stick around.

[00:18:36] It's two, that you're thinking of this more than just a paycheck. But then at the same time that you are at least thinking past the initial steps, which are, that's huge in this world. Yeah. It's not just, oh, I get in, I start making the money. You know, it's like how much I'm making. And, you know, that's not the question to ask. But I like that it's a long-term thought process because it's like, hey, if I bring them on, I teach them, I, you know, I pour into them.

[00:19:06] Because at that point, you're getting mentored in some shape, form, or fashion, you know? And that might be something to ask. It's like how is the mentorship, you know, that side of things. But it's not like, okay, I'm going to build my patient base and then I'm gone. I'm taking everybody with me because nobody wants to deal with that. That's right. And another question that I would ask is I would ask, are there events that I am encouraged to participate in outside of work?

[00:19:33] This actually shows a desire that you want this more than just a job, right? Yeah. And I think that that's something that if I were on the other end as an employer, I would think, wow, this person gets it. This person wants more. This person is actually giving me some value versus me just, you know, paying them and teaching them. Yeah. And that you're invested in the community. You want to be a part of the community that they are staking their reputation in and that you're going to be a good fit for it.

[00:20:03] Absolutely. And, you know, we all know that showing face in the community is very, very important. Let's say they get to the question on why us? You got to have your answer already prepared, right? You can't just fabricate something right there because you're going to have something that you're going to fumble through it. And it's one that is too important. So what I would do is I would either go on their website. I would, you know, look up the doctor.

[00:20:27] I would figure out some things that were just really specific and say, you know, the reason why is because you have 150,000 reviews. Made that number up, right? Yeah. Five star reviews. That is something I want to be part of. Or the fact that you guys use, you know, high tech equipment is something that I know that you invest in. So I want to be part of that as well. So whatever it may be, find a couple of little things and really kind of hone in on those.

[00:20:56] I think that is so important because anytime I would, you know, interview for like a band director position, I always go back to that. I'd go and I'd look up how the band is done, what the alma mater, like what the values, blah, blah, blah, all of this. And I would make sure that I somehow tied that into answers and made sure that they knew that I cared about the actual place, that it wasn't just, oh, well, there's a job open and I need a job, you know.

[00:21:24] And also I wore the colors of the school, like whatever the colors were, I had that outfit, you know, suit, tie, all of that. I made sure I came representing. That's really smart. And, you know, one of the things that I keep going back to or I want you to really remember, they're looking for two things. They're looking for someone that they can leave alone and know that their practice and their patient population is going to be cared for at a high level.

[00:21:52] Or they're looking for someone that they can work with every single day right beside and know they're going to have a good time and enjoy. So they're really looking for one of two employees. And so the quicker that you can figure out which one they're looking for or if you can just tailor your approach to both of those, then you're going to be in a really good position to get this job. So do you have any bonus tips that somebody coming into an interview that could kind of give them a little bit of an oomph?

[00:22:23] Yeah. So I'm a big believer in reciprocity. So all that means is if I give you something, you have this internal feeling that you need to give me something back. So I think that this starts, you could use this in a way like you're going in for an interview. Maybe you get coffee for the whole entire team. Maybe it's something smaller than that. But it's an unexpected gift and it builds that reciprocity. And I think that that's a really, really good way to make a great first impression. Yeah.

[00:22:51] And it's not just the doctor or the person interviewing you. It's the whole entire team is going to be like, oh, I really like that person. That's right. So we've crushed the interview and we feel like a million bucks. So now how do we seal the deal? All right. So we have to follow up. It is so important. There's nothing worse than a great interview and the person doesn't follow up.

[00:23:14] So you've got to follow up and you've got to do it in a quick post interview email thanking them, referencing something that's specific about the conversation that they had earlier. Right. I also think it's a really nice touch. If you can have cookies or something arrive to the office almost immediately after you leave, because when they're going to start, they're going to start thinking about, oh, my gosh, that that person was thinking so far ahead that they made this work out and timed very nicely.

[00:23:43] That's a great touch. And you want to also remember that no matter how the interview went, that the doctor or the team has sacrificed the most precious resource they have, and that's their time. So make sure that you are grateful and appreciative of that. Let's talk a little bit about knowing your worth. Like what is something that, you know, going into this, like how does that come into factor with interviews?

[00:24:12] So when you're talking about your worth, you need to know about the demographics, about the area that you're working in, right? Listen, you guys are coming out of at a residency and you feel like you should probably be making a bazillion dollars and all the things. But you're not a you're not a real orthodontist yet. I mean, yes, you've got the you've got the certificate, you've got all the things, but you haven't treated patients on a large scale.

[00:24:40] So you have to understand that your value when you first start or you get your first job may be a little lower. And that's OK. What I would do is I would start with a daily minimum, something that's guaranteed to you with the idea that you are going to go on to a percentage or production base right after that. Because that way it makes the doctor or the employer feel pretty good about it.

[00:25:06] But then also it gives you the ability to show your worth and to maybe outpace that daily, that daily production. So what is a range, you know, kind of that they should be kind of keeping in the back of their mind? So it depends on your demographic, right? If you are in a position that, you know, you're in New York or California, maybe a little bit more, maybe a little bit less. And also, you know, what type of practice this is.

[00:25:32] If this is a corporate practice or if this is a private practice, it may have different kind of ranges where you could be. If if you're going into a corporate setting, I would say ask for the moon. They are going to treat this negotiation. They're going to treat this as just business. There's not going to be anything involved in it other than that. So so ask for the moon. If you get it, great. If you don't, fine. I love that because knowing your worth, knowing what kind of range you might be walking into.

[00:25:59] And again, if it's a smaller area, you might not be getting that. So just kind of have that in your mind. It's like if you're in a rural area, you might be looking at less than the 150 to 200 range. So let's talk about contracts. What do you need to know walking into signing a contract? So I always say this contracts. They're going to throw out terminology like this. They're going to say, oh, this is our standard contract.

[00:26:26] Oh, this is this is what everyone's all of our associates sign. The thing is, there's no such a thing as a standard contract. Once they put your name on the contract, it has now become a custom contract. It is a contract between you and them. It's not a contract between you and all the other people that they've hired before. So I don't I don't subscribe to that type of thought process. But really what I want you to do is I want you to read the contract, make sure that the

[00:26:52] non-competes and the production bonuses and the paid time off are good. And just to let you know, paid time off is a very important thing. You won't think of it as being an important thing. You're like, I'm ready to work. But then if you can go and still make money while you're on vacation or you're at a CE course or whatever, those are really, really important things. And then ask them if they have a stipend for CE. Some offices will give you, you know, eight hundred, a thousand dollars to go to, you

[00:27:22] know, continue your education, which is really helpful, especially as a young doctor. You can go and find things that you really want to learn about. And it's really helpful. I think that's important because so many people don't read the fine print and they get into sticky situations. And I'm not saying that any employer is going is, you know, maliciously trying to take advantage of anyone, but just make sure.

[00:27:47] And if you don't understand it, like get advice from a lawyer or whatever. And if you don't have the money for a lawyer, at least throw it into chat GPT and have it explain it to you. Do something other than just blindly signing a contract, because however long that contract is, you're stuck there, you know, and you need to be careful. That's right. And contracts can also be very one sided, right? So most of the time when a contract is written, it's written to protect the person that wrote the contract, right?

[00:28:18] So you want to make sure that you're really keyed in on those little details. But then also when it comes down to negotiation, really kind of it depends on the practice, but you have the ability to leverage, have some leverage more than others. And what I say is if they posted this job for eight months and they haven't been able to fill it, you may have a little bit more leverage. So you can negotiate a little bit more. Or maybe it's in a rural area that nobody wants to go to.

[00:28:47] You may have a little bit more leverage there. So take that into consideration. And the opposite is true. If you want to come to a place like Nashville, everybody wants to come to a place like Nashville. So it's sometimes you don't have any leverage at all. So you just have to kind of take the contract at face value. But nonetheless, read the fine print, make sure you understand it and make sure that you're at least trying to do something that works in your benefit.

[00:29:15] Yeah, it's like a car. The longer it's on a lot, the better deal you can get. And it might not be, oh, well, I get a better percentage or I get more money. It could be, hey, can I get five more PTO days? Like it could be little tweaks like that that could change. That's a week. That is, that's huge. Yeah. I mean, I would even say one or two extra days is amazing. And you won't realize it until you start to use them.

[00:29:43] And once you're in associateships or as an employee for a little bit longer, you'll see that those pay huge dividends. I would, I would definitely recommend that. Well, that is our episode. You are not just future orthodontists. You are future game changers. So make sure to check all of this out. Employers are not doing you a favor. You are the prize. And Mark Twain said it best. The secret of getting ahead is getting started. So get out there.

[00:30:10] Make sure that you're ready for all of your interviews, everything that we talked about. This has been Zach. And I'm Dr. Bryce. You've been listening to the Grow Ortho podcast. It's my big guess.

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