Optimize Before You Expand: Dr. Brad Jacobs on Orthodontic Success

[00:00:08] Hey Luke. Thanks so much for coming on the Grow Ortho Podcast today. I am your father. Thanks for having me. Definitely. Yeah. Tell listeners, viewers just a little bit about yourself. You're actually an orthodontist, but you told us to call you Brad. It's kind of weird for me. Yeah. Well, I mean, I've been called a lot of things. So, so Brad is least of the things that- Brad's pretty good. It's at least your name. Yeah. You know? Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah. So I'm an orthodontist in Chattanooga, actually Eastern Tennessee.

[00:00:37] Um, and been there for 17 years. Practiced in Boise, Idaho for about five and a half before that. Um, went to Baylor Dental School in Dallas and, uh, went up to UConn for residency in Connecticut. So met my wife there who is also an orthodontist and, uh, yeah, we have three offices, um, in the Chattanooga area, um, and been loving it.

[00:01:05] So, uh, how are things going this year for you?

[00:01:08] Really good. Yeah. Really good. So the interesting thing is that the first of the year we, you know, we all had some conversation. I mean, it was like, like, I was like, we're going to double. Like we're, we're like, boom. Um, we've stayed growing significant. I mean, I think we'll probably in the year 50% over last year. Um, like, which if you had told me that, and Harrison, you did tell me that.

[00:01:34] Like, Hey, why don't, why don't we, you just do what we say? And then, and then like, then you can get that number if you want to sell someday or you want to, you know, like, like why?

[00:01:43] Right. And it was, it was kind of one of those things where, you know, so I was looking back before coming and, and we started our relationship in 2021.

[00:01:55] Um, and from 2020 to 2021, that first year that I started working with you guys, we had 27% growth and I didn't really, I didn't do anything different. I mean, and, and this was like, you guys kind of saying, Hey, you know what? Like, let's look at your digital mark. What? And it was like, I didn't have it. It was zero.

[00:02:15] Right. We had no, in fact, I think that you guys were like, you're not even like in Google, like you're not on the map. You're like, you have zero.

[00:02:24] Zero presence, you know? And, uh, I was like, okay, whatever that is, you know? And, uh, and so I think just, just that part alone was, was, cause in our office, we did nothing different.

[00:02:37] You know, we didn't change how we were doing anything. That was really the, the, the time when even before we put the pedal down with, with the digital marketing and that side of things, you guys kind of like, I remember Luke, you going now, wait a minute.

[00:02:53] Like, we don't want to push all these patients to you if you're not really ready to treat them right. You know, if you can't handle the influx. And I remember thinking, well, but I got open chairs. Like, I, we can, what do you mean? Like we can handle it, you know?

[00:03:06] And, uh, and so having that conversation, kind of me starting to kind of look a little bit more closely at, at that side of things. And, and that's the, been the problem for me for, I mean, I got out in 2002, you know?

[00:03:20] And I feel like I, I'm a business savvy guy. That was kind of something. So I never graduated from college because I remember that I took business classes instead of like a foreign language and history or whatever.

[00:03:32] So I don't have a degree from Baylor. Um, but I obviously got on my science classes and got into dental school, but, but I feel like I'm more attuned than most, maybe to the business side of things.

[00:03:43] I like the numbers. I like all that stuff. So I felt like I had a plan and my plan was more like cast a wide net, have all these locations and then grow them, you know?

[00:03:53] And, and that was kind of when you guys were like, well, you know, maybe, maybe that's not the best way to do it. You know, you're going to, you're just increasing your overhead and until they grow, then your, your, your bottom line is going to be smaller.

[00:04:04] And you really helped me point. That's when I, that was, we started consulting, you know, you guys came out and, and kind of started looking at things like, Hey, you.

[00:04:11] Was that 22?

[00:04:13] That was 22.

[00:04:13] Yeah.

[00:04:14] Yeah. And, uh, and that was when you identified some, Hey, you really need an operations manager and you need a call center and you need, you know, it was all of a sudden these pieces that were kind of like you guys knew, but I didn't know what I didn't know.

[00:04:28] And, and even though I felt like I knew a decent amount about it, it was like, I obviously did not.

[00:04:35] And, and so for 22 and 23, that's really what we were focused on. We didn't see like huge growth numbers during those years because we were putting the pieces in place.

[00:04:49] Right.

[00:04:49] We were setting up for a year like this, really, you know? So, so, and it takes some time, you know, when you're looking for the right person, the right people for the right seats, like you can't just go, Oh, well, Hey, let's interview.

[00:05:01] And boom, two months later, we've got that perfect fit. So it's taken some time and it's taken some time to define those roles. And, and you guys have been instrumental and, you know, Hey, we have these, look at this, look at this, look at this book I've written in that book.

[00:05:17] I've read, you know, I've read all the books and, and you guys have the, all the little outlines for things and the scripting and all that stuff that, that truly have set us up.

[00:05:27] So now I can say on the backside, I'm like, now I know what you were talking about. Cause now we're set up like our last two months of secret shoppers, a hundred percent, all three each month, like a hundred percent.

[00:05:39] Like, so call centers like knocking it out of the park. And really, I think during that time, maybe the underlying current is Brad, you, you need to understand what the consumer wants.

[00:05:53] You know, this is, this is no longer, we kind of talked a little bit about this sort of shift in the profession that is, you know, it's no longer, I'm the doctor.

[00:06:02] You're privileged to come see me. And so if you miss an appointment, you know, see ya, you know, you wasted my time.

[00:06:08] Um, and I think that really, cause I've listened to the podcasts and, and here docs, and, and there's a kind of something that seems to repeat.

[00:06:17] It's like, I didn't want to, I didn't want to, I didn't want to. And then when I did, it worked.

[00:06:22] And it's like, so what, what really is the reason for that finally deciding to shift? And I think it's, I think it's that you guys do a fantastic job of really pulling the curtain back on.

[00:06:37] Look at what the other side of the chair, the person sitting in there, what do they want? What do they expect? What are they seeing when they come in your office?

[00:06:46] And, and what are, what are their expectations? And, you know, Harrison, we talked about like, you start throwing all these x-rays up and all that.

[00:06:53] And also people are like, whoa, this is serious.

[00:06:56] This is serious. I thought I was getting braces today.

[00:06:58] Yeah.

[00:06:58] Class one, that sounds pretty serious. I'm not going to go home and think about this.

[00:07:04] Yep.

[00:07:04] Yeah. And, and again, you know, my point was, but from like the start of our education, especially, you know, it's like we are put on the hotspot.

[00:07:12] But we are expected to defend why we're recommending treatment.

[00:07:17] So to the extent that in residency, we have case conferences where we stand up in a room of our peers and our instructors, and we have to present a case.

[00:07:24] And they're shelling you with questions about, well, why did you do this?

[00:07:27] Well, did you consider that? Why not this?

[00:07:29] So that's what we're used to is saying, here's your, here's what's going on.

[00:07:34] Here's your treatment plan.

[00:07:36] And here's why, you know, this is what I've come to.

[00:07:40] Expecting that person on the other side to be a professor.

[00:07:45] And, and, and, oh, well, yes, well, how about, you know, this?

[00:07:47] That's interesting.

[00:07:48] Like, and they're just like, I want my kids teeth straight or I want my teeth straight, you know?

[00:07:52] And once, once you showed me that, once, once you kind of helped me to realize they don't want to know that, that you can have all those thoughts in your head.

[00:08:02] And certainly if someone asks those questions and wants that information, yeah, tell them, show them, you know?

[00:08:09] But most people don't.

[00:08:10] Yeah, most people don't.

[00:08:12] Yeah.

[00:08:12] You were the first guy to give me that insight, actually, on like what transpired through school and why a lot of docs are wired like this.

[00:08:20] I never understood that.

[00:08:21] I still tell this story.

[00:08:23] I was like, you know, I'm always telling the docs to do this and do that.

[00:08:26] And they struggle to see it.

[00:08:28] And it was my buddy, Dr. Brad Jacobs, that really pulled the curtain back on that side of why so many docs feel the need to go through this 30 minute long explanation.

[00:08:39] Because that's what you did.

[00:08:40] And that's how you became an orthodontist.

[00:08:42] It's a pattern.

[00:08:43] Yeah.

[00:08:43] It's a pattern.

[00:08:44] Right?

[00:08:45] A lot of them still think they're in front of their peers explaining a case, going to get shelled.

[00:08:50] Yeah.

[00:08:51] And really, it's just the parent that's like...

[00:08:53] Well, it goes back to, you know, the map is not the territory.

[00:08:57] And so doctors, their map and their territory aligns.

[00:09:02] But a patient, they got a completely different map.

[00:09:05] It's like very simple, you know?

[00:09:08] Yeah.

[00:09:08] And obviously, you're a specialist.

[00:09:11] You know, you went to school for however many years, you know?

[00:09:15] And so when you're defending your case, you're with like-minded people who are very educated, sort by distinction, all the minute differences.

[00:09:24] And that's great.

[00:09:26] That's what makes you, you know...

[00:09:28] You.

[00:09:28] Yeah.

[00:09:29] Incredible at what you do.

[00:09:32] Very incredible.

[00:09:33] Yes.

[00:09:34] And don't forget...

[00:09:35] Dare I say the best?

[00:09:36] Everybody watching and listening, you're all incredible.

[00:09:39] Yeah.

[00:09:39] Some of you.

[00:09:40] But, you know, a patient, they're not orthodontists.

[00:09:43] They haven't gone through any training.

[00:09:46] They might have read a blog.

[00:09:47] Yeah.

[00:09:47] Maybe heard something.

[00:09:48] They might have read something that was misinformation on Reddit.

[00:09:52] Now that's becoming a popular thing where, you know, Invisalign users will go on Reddit and there's just tons of misinformation.

[00:09:59] Yeah.

[00:09:59] Only wear your trays at night and, you know, all these tips.

[00:10:02] And it's like, that's not clinically sound at all, you know?

[00:10:07] And so...

[00:10:08] But most people don't even do that.

[00:10:10] Most people just, they don't know anything.

[00:10:11] And so, getting on their level, you know, being other-sorted versus, well, I'm a doctor.

[00:10:18] I know all this stuff and I got to give my spiel.

[00:10:21] It's like, well, what point are they on?

[00:10:24] Where are they at?

[00:10:25] And once you can have that kind of empathy and understanding and know, they just want basic information.

[00:10:33] And maybe you can even go into, you know, where it used to be your outcome is this perfect case.

[00:10:41] You know, now a lot of patients aren't necessarily wanting that, you know?

[00:10:46] And so, are we able or are you guys as orthodontists able to help them when the outcome is not perfection?

[00:10:55] And I'll just back up for a second and say, I think that most of us out there who are used to going through all the details and the technical side of things aren't doing it because we're egotistical and want to show how much we know.

[00:11:10] It's really like we want the patient to understand.

[00:11:13] And at the end of the day, they probably don't need or care to understand.

[00:11:18] They just want to make sure at the end of the day that things look great and are what they expect, you know?

[00:11:23] And so, in those instances where a little more information is needed, I think, yes, we all want to go into that.

[00:11:29] Well, it's kind of like a car.

[00:11:30] You know, you can pull out the manual that's this thick and you can understand everything about the car and how it's made.

[00:11:37] My car, I know very little about it.

[00:11:40] Like I told you the engine, you know, that's about all I know.

[00:11:43] It's like the engine, horsepower, and the exhaust package.

[00:11:47] The really exciting car.

[00:11:48] Which was totally worth it because it sounds fantastic.

[00:11:51] But it's fantastic.

[00:11:54] I don't know anything else.

[00:11:57] And so, you know, yeah, like, and I totally get that.

[00:12:03] There's this path towards treatment and, you know, here's how it's going to work.

[00:12:09] And you want to make sure that the patient is informed.

[00:12:13] But it's just a balance, you know?

[00:12:15] And nowadays, it's just totally different.

[00:12:17] Also, just being in a different culture and a new generation.

[00:12:23] What actually resonates with them?

[00:12:26] What is going to get a response, a relationship with them?

[00:12:30] In most cases, it's not all the details.

[00:12:33] Yeah.

[00:12:33] You know, we don't want to know everything about the car and how it works.

[00:12:37] Yeah.

[00:12:38] Well, there is, like you said, a lot of misinformation, say, on Reddit.

[00:12:41] Right.

[00:12:42] On the other token, there's some really big orthodontists that are influencers on social media

[00:12:49] that are giving people tons of great information before they come in, you know?

[00:12:54] To shout out the braces guy.

[00:12:57] Never met him.

[00:12:57] Great Instagram page.

[00:12:59] And the bentist.

[00:13:01] I've heard some lectures going to different conferences and chapter meetings where doctors

[00:13:06] are saying some patients are coming in even more informed with good information because

[00:13:11] people like the braces guy and the bentist.

[00:13:14] They're fun.

[00:13:14] They're young.

[00:13:15] They got cool content.

[00:13:17] And, like, patients are coming in like, oh, yeah, I already know how to brush with braces

[00:13:20] because I was watching the bentist post.

[00:13:23] And you're supposed to do it like this and do it like that.

[00:13:25] Yeah.

[00:13:26] And it's like buying a car real estate, like consumers, by the time they go to the car lot,

[00:13:31] most of the time, they know what they want.

[00:13:32] They know what the car is.

[00:13:33] I'm just looking for the one that I already picked out or going and see a house.

[00:13:37] I've already seen all the houses.

[00:13:38] I just want to go make sure it doesn't smell like cat litter and stuff, you know?

[00:13:42] I built my engagement ring online.

[00:13:44] Here we go.

[00:13:45] Can you deliver it to me?

[00:13:46] And there's a lot of patients that will watch these orthodontists, licensed orthodontists

[00:13:50] that are influencers that are putting incredible information out there.

[00:13:53] And they come in, yeah, I think I've got a, you know, posterior open bite and I'm going

[00:13:58] to need to wear these.

[00:13:59] And doctor, yeah, awesome.

[00:14:02] And which then removes the need for the whole, you know, dissertation lecture of the console.

[00:14:08] And that's a good point, understanding where they're at.

[00:14:11] Bingo.

[00:14:11] Yeah.

[00:14:12] Well, and I mean, we all love informed patients because that way what we say makes sense and

[00:14:20] they maybe have a little insight as to what's the reasons for recommending certain things.

[00:14:28] And the difficult part is when you can have, there's no one way to do orthodontics.

[00:14:36] You know, we're all trained differently.

[00:14:37] We all go to different CE classes and have different sort of ways that we look to solve

[00:14:42] the puzzle.

[00:14:43] And so sometimes, hey, my way of doing things, my philosophy of treatment is different than

[00:14:50] this guy's.

[00:14:51] And it doesn't mean it's better.

[00:14:52] It doesn't mean it's worse.

[00:14:52] It's just different.

[00:14:54] And so sometimes it's definitely better.

[00:14:56] But I mean, let's be honest.

[00:15:00] You didn't say it.

[00:15:01] I said, no, I'm kidding.

[00:15:03] But at the end of the day, we all want the best for our patients.

[00:15:07] We all want great results.

[00:15:09] And we want them to be glad that they went through treatment, you know, where they're

[00:15:13] going to say, oh, my gosh, you need to go to these guys, you know, this guy, her, whatever.

[00:15:17] And so when someone comes in with information that is from someone that looks at problems

[00:15:25] a little differently, sometimes that can create some more explanation.

[00:15:30] But it shouldn't be a bad thing.

[00:15:32] And I tell patients all the time, orthodontics is a process.

[00:15:36] It's not a procedure.

[00:15:37] This is not something that's a one and done.

[00:15:39] You come in, sit still for 20 minutes, and then you go on with the rest of your life.

[00:15:43] Okay.

[00:15:43] This is a couple years potentially of regularly being seen and going through the stages to

[00:15:51] get you from where you are to where you need to be.

[00:15:54] And so if you're not starting on the same page, you're never going to end on the same page.

[00:15:59] And so, you know, we're not machines.

[00:16:01] We are biological systems, which means we're not absolutely predictable.

[00:16:06] You can't do the same thing to every person and expect the same results because not everyone's

[00:16:11] going to react the same way.

[00:16:12] And so if there's someone that I sense like they're kind of looking at me with that, like,

[00:16:17] you sure about that?

[00:16:18] Like, I always try to ask, like, I don't feel like you're really like buying what I'm selling

[00:16:24] here.

[00:16:24] You know, is like, is there something I'm saying that's not making sense to you?

[00:16:27] And try to vet that out.

[00:16:29] And if it's like, well, I really want, you know, I really want to put braces on little

[00:16:34] Susie right now because of this reason.

[00:16:36] And, you know, and I'm like, well, I don't like to do it that way.

[00:16:40] I like to wait until this point or whatever the case may be.

[00:16:44] I'm like, look, I want to treat her.

[00:16:47] I'm like, I want to treat everybody that comes in the door.

[00:16:48] I want to, this is what I do.

[00:16:50] I love doing it.

[00:16:51] But I really think you should go get another opinion or two and see if what someone else

[00:16:56] says lines up with what makes sense to you.

[00:16:59] You know, because again, things can come up that are unexpected, that are unpredictable.

[00:17:03] And if someone's just chomping a bit, waiting for that, see, I told you, I told you that,

[00:17:09] you know, you didn't know what you were doing because, you know, we would have done

[00:17:11] this and, you know, it's like, you don't want, you don't want that.

[00:17:14] And that's not good for the patient and that's not good for you or the parent, you know, everyone

[00:17:18] involved.

[00:17:19] So I think that understanding at the beginning, and that's part of the reason too, why I probably

[00:17:24] find myself going into that explanation a little more than I need to is just to make

[00:17:29] sure that everything lines up.

[00:17:31] And with most people, it does.

[00:17:33] And I think to your point, Luke, people do come in now and consumers may say, look, I

[00:17:40] don't want them perfect.

[00:17:40] I don't, you know, yeah, my bite's off.

[00:17:43] I know I walked in here on my own strength so I can eat fine.

[00:17:46] You can understand what I'm saying.

[00:17:47] So function's not a big issue.

[00:17:50] I understand there may be some issues, but I really just want like the space closed.

[00:17:54] And so what I find myself doing, and I think we all have our own kind of line in the sand,

[00:18:01] so to speak, of what we're willing to do and what we're not.

[00:18:05] I try to look at it more from a standpoint of, can I help this person?

[00:18:08] Are they better off after I'm done than before I start?

[00:18:13] And if I can answer yes to that, then I probably will treat them.

[00:18:16] And I think there's, that's a huge, huge pool of patience.

[00:18:21] And those are the self-care, aligner, mail home, you know, that whole segment.

[00:18:28] All of a sudden, if you're willing to make things affordable for them and do what they

[00:18:34] want you to do.

[00:18:35] And again, not being a trade, but a profession.

[00:18:38] I'm not, nobody's going to just tell me, hey, do this.

[00:18:40] But being open to not necessarily getting that textbook board finish on every patient, I think

[00:18:51] there's a big pool of patience that are there.

[00:18:54] It's kind of what Dr. Thomas talks about, unoffendability.

[00:18:57] Kind of ties into that.

[00:18:59] Less rigid, unoffendability, right?

[00:19:02] Right.

[00:19:02] This, the result of this case is not a definition of who I am.

[00:19:08] Yeah.

[00:19:09] And I think that's been a big thing, you know, for me over time is you start to, because again,

[00:19:16] typically we're type A, we're perfectionists, you know, we want the best result possible,

[00:19:21] but understanding that we're not in control of all the variables.

[00:19:26] And, and so, you know, I've come to the point now where it's like, if I want it more than the

[00:19:31] patient does, then we're not going to get the results that I want, you know?

[00:19:34] And that's okay.

[00:19:35] Like, that's okay.

[00:19:37] Yeah.

[00:19:38] No one's died of a bad bite or crooked teeth that I know of.

[00:19:40] So if they're not willing to do all the things necessary, then I can't, I can't hold myself

[00:19:48] accountable to what they are willing to do or not to do.

[00:19:52] So.

[00:19:53] Yeah.

[00:19:53] Just to go back to, uh, 22, when we came into the office, um, you know, there were certain

[00:20:01] things that we immediately picked up on, which some of which you, you brought up like,

[00:20:06] Hey, we need to go ahead and start a small call center.

[00:20:09] Um, one of the interesting things was you kind of had two people in the TC role.

[00:20:16] And when we started looking at the data, one had a higher conversion rate.

[00:20:21] Uh, and so right, uh, right person, right seat, you know, and we, we see this in our business.

[00:20:30] It's like, yeah, great person.

[00:20:32] They're aligned with our values, love their work ethic, but the, the seat isn't really a

[00:20:38] fit.

[00:20:39] You know what I mean?

[00:20:40] And so looking at that with your organization, I thought was really cool.

[00:20:44] And the openness that you guys had to, yeah, if it makes sense, like let's, let's move things

[00:20:50] around a little bit, maybe talk a little bit about that.

[00:20:53] And some of the org chart, you know, making that shift within, uh, the TC role, but then

[00:20:58] also bringing in more people on the phones, a lead in the call center.

[00:21:02] You know, I think one of the call center team members ascended to management.

[00:21:07] So kind of walk through that and like the, the value of kind of analyzing the org chart

[00:21:13] and, you know, right fit, right seat.

[00:21:17] Um, yeah.

[00:21:18] And, and we had no org chart before him, you know, it was like, okay, you can do that and

[00:21:25] you can do that, you know?

[00:21:26] And, and so again, I think it comes down to there are experts that you need to rely on

[00:21:35] if you want to have a success.

[00:21:37] And I'm speaking from an orthodontic practice standpoint, but probably is fairly, um, widely

[00:21:45] applicable to just about anything.

[00:21:47] But yeah.

[00:21:47] So having an org chart to begin with was okay.

[00:21:52] Okay.

[00:21:53] Now I see what positions we need first of all.

[00:21:58] And then instead of going from the, okay, this person is competent.

[00:22:03] I like them.

[00:22:04] They align with our values.

[00:22:06] So let's put them in an important role over here.

[00:22:10] And, you know, and like doing it that way versus what are their strengths or weaknesses?

[00:22:16] What does the position call for?

[00:22:17] You know, these are the personality traits of someone who's going to be good at this.

[00:22:21] And then finding a person with those, not just the person that seems to be the most competent

[00:22:27] to, you know, and then you can start looking for people with those characteristics versus

[00:22:32] just looking for someone who may have a lot of experience in ortho or what, you know?

[00:22:38] And so you really start to, I mean, I think it comes down to, you're starting to specialize.

[00:22:43] You're starting to say, we're getting people that are, are going to be good at these particular

[00:22:49] roles.

[00:22:50] And if you put that person who's fantastic at that into this other role, they may be

[00:22:56] okay, but they're not going to really excel, you know?

[00:22:59] And, and so not knowing that and really the value of seeing it, you know, for me, I'm a

[00:23:06] visual learner, like physically seeing an org chart and then physically reading these

[00:23:12] are the personality traits, the characteristics of someone for, for these positions really

[00:23:17] helped me to then look for those things.

[00:23:19] And, and, and so, and again, all setting up, you know, you're looking at it from this,

[00:23:27] from the perspective of we've seen what really successful practices do.

[00:23:33] And we've seen how they're set up, like, and, and so hearing that and, and finally saying,

[00:23:40] okay, I'm going to, I'm going to basically say, I'm going to trust these guys and, and

[00:23:44] I'm going to do what they're, what they're saying because they seem to be pretty good at

[00:23:48] it.

[00:23:49] Um, and doing my best to try to follow through with those things.

[00:23:53] And, and again, it took some time to find those people to put in the right seats, but it's

[00:23:58] amazing when you start to see that machine start to work, you know, and I mean, it's

[00:24:03] like, it's like a, a really nice watch when you're looking at the inside and all those

[00:24:07] little like cogs and springs and things.

[00:24:10] And it's like, man, that's a beautiful thing.

[00:24:11] But if, if you swapped them out, probably wouldn't work, you know?

[00:24:15] And, and, and so getting those pieces of the puzzle together that have also taken a lot

[00:24:22] off my plate, you know, that's the other thing is it reduces the stress.

[00:24:26] It reduces the work, you know, because those tasks can be taken care of by people in those

[00:24:33] positions.

[00:24:33] Whereas if it's basically just a big bowl of blah, here's, here's everybody.

[00:24:39] We're all kind of in this boat together and nobody really knows you're kind of doing what

[00:24:42] you can.

[00:24:44] There's like too much, I don't know who's accountable for this or who's accountable for

[00:24:48] that.

[00:24:49] So I got to make sure I'm making sure something, somebody is going to take it over, you know?

[00:24:52] Um, and so the, all that leading up to, um, really seeing it in action, you know, and that

[00:25:01] was, you know, the fundamentals, you know, coming down to the, the fishbind fundamentals.

[00:25:06] We've been, I know, I know.

[00:25:08] Come for, I know.

[00:25:09] And for all of you who have not been, listen to them.

[00:25:13] Cause I wish I'd done it earlier, you know?

[00:25:15] And probably everyone says that, but, and then once you see it, it's like, I don't need

[00:25:19] to reinvent the wheel here.

[00:25:20] I just need to build my wheel like that, you know?

[00:25:23] And, and then we're off.

[00:25:25] And that's essentially January was when we said we started, we'd made some minor tweaks

[00:25:30] when we got back.

[00:25:32] So the end of last year, September, October, November, December, maybe it was last quarter,

[00:25:38] maybe it was October, November, December.

[00:25:40] But anyway, we made some little tweaks based on what we saw that we saw a little bump and

[00:25:46] it was like, okay, well, if that little tweak made a little bump, let's just go all in.

[00:25:51] And that's when it was instantly boom.

[00:25:55] I mean, boom.

[00:25:56] And to the extent where it's like, okay, we got to hire more chair side.

[00:26:00] I want to get the same day start column.

[00:26:03] And, and like, we're honestly, we're just now like going through finding people to, to,

[00:26:11] to work, you know?

[00:26:15] As we've gotten them now, it's like, we can start to do these same day start, you know?

[00:26:19] And we've been doing them on and off when we've had time, but now we're, we're able to start

[00:26:23] regularly fitting these people in and, and, and it's fantastic.

[00:26:27] Fantastic.

[00:26:27] But it's also, I'll tell you, it's what's been a little bit of an adjustment that I didn't foresee

[00:26:34] was I can look now at our exams that are set up and we're not booked out like five or six weeks.

[00:26:42] And at first it was kind of like, oh no, is this going to be a bad month?

[00:26:47] You know, looking, looking at the end of the month and there's not.

[00:26:49] And the reason is because we're getting them in and starting them that day.

[00:26:53] Yeah.

[00:26:53] So, so, so when somebody calls and gets in, it's not like they've got to wait to then get

[00:26:59] their, their in and boom.

[00:27:00] So they're kind of going through and already all the way in much quicker.

[00:27:04] Being booked out is not a good thing.

[00:27:06] Yeah.

[00:27:07] Especially if you have a pretty good funnel from the internet and digital marketing, those

[00:27:14] consumers are trained, Netflix, Amazon Prime, DoorDash, the list goes on.

[00:27:22] You know, I can order anything just about, you know, unless I'm in the middle of nowhere.

[00:27:27] But most people can get stuff right away.

[00:27:31] And so this whole, and that, that kind of turned in a little bit, I would hear years ago

[00:27:37] of kind of like an ego thing.

[00:27:39] Yeah.

[00:27:39] Yeah.

[00:27:39] We're booked out six weeks, you know, booked out, you know, 12 weeks or whatever.

[00:27:43] And it's like, well, that's not really good because have you measured the fall off?

[00:27:49] Right.

[00:27:49] You know, but, and that's, that's, you're exactly right.

[00:27:53] It was a big, like war book booked out two months, you know, but that is, that's like,

[00:27:59] that's exactly what's changed.

[00:28:01] You know, that mentality of, of the egotistical sort of I'm booked out this long or whatever.

[00:28:08] You're not considering that patient, that consumer, like, well, they're going to have

[00:28:12] to wait eight weeks.

[00:28:13] You're thinking of yourself, like, see how people are going to line up to come see me.

[00:28:17] You know, they're, they're, they're going to wait two months.

[00:28:19] And so what's changed is all of a sudden you got to say, I don't want somebody to have

[00:28:23] to wait two months.

[00:28:24] I want them to get in sooner.

[00:28:27] You know, I want to be able to provide that convenience of getting them on the same day

[00:28:30] when they're already out of work or out of school or whatever, you know?

[00:28:33] And that's the, the shift that you guys really helped me.

[00:28:37] I think one of the, probably one of the greatest things that's translated into the practice

[00:28:43] success and growth is that sort of mentality shift of you need to look at it from the patient

[00:28:50] side, the consumer side, and not your side, both in the exam and the technicality of how

[00:28:56] we present things, but also in the mindset of saying, okay, what's, what's going to be

[00:29:03] best for them?

[00:29:04] What's going to help them?

[00:29:05] Let's remove those barriers, so to speak, for them to start treatment and, and to, to

[00:29:10] be able to look at a digital lead versus like an organic lead.

[00:29:14] Like I'd never even thought about that.

[00:29:16] And, and when you guys pointed that out and you're like, well, how many times did you see

[00:29:20] our stuff before you reached out to us?

[00:29:22] And it was, it was almost like you were pulling some magic David Blaine, like, you know, where

[00:29:27] it's like, it was like, yeah.

[00:29:30] Oh no.

[00:29:32] 50 text messages.

[00:29:34] Right.

[00:29:34] I mean, and you got it.

[00:29:36] We've had this conversation with some people and they don't, they don't get it.

[00:29:39] It doesn't register.

[00:29:40] This lead came in, they no showed it's a terrible lead.

[00:29:43] And I'm like, do you know how long you've been clicking on our stuff and ghosting us and

[00:29:47] not?

[00:29:47] Oh, well that's different Harrison.

[00:29:49] Yeah.

[00:29:49] No, it's exactly the same.

[00:29:51] In what realm is that?

[00:29:52] Literally the same.

[00:29:52] It's to a T the same thing.

[00:29:55] Yeah.

[00:29:55] Because that's a little, it's just a little pride thing.

[00:29:58] But, but I mean that, that, that whole notion of saying someone who's like clicking on you

[00:30:04] or like, and again, just look at how, how we personally in our own lives do that.

[00:30:11] But seeing that in a way that I had never really seen before, which was there, there,

[00:30:17] they're about convenience and timing, you know, and, and a lot of, a lot of our growth

[00:30:22] or at least a big part of it are 20 and 30 year olds.

[00:30:26] And, and it's like, they're, they're, they're like, Hey, do I want to maybe go on this trip

[00:30:33] this month?

[00:30:34] Or, Oh, maybe I'll start braces.

[00:30:35] Like, you know, they have that discretionary income where you're not just, they're not

[00:30:38] going, I am going to get braces right now.

[00:30:41] It's kind of like, I think I kind of want to do this sometime soon, you know?

[00:30:45] And depending on what comes up in their lives and what might kind of occupy, or they may

[00:30:49] decide to spend that money on that month versus whatever, like that could change.

[00:30:53] And it could be four or five, six months before they're finally like, okay, yeah, I think,

[00:30:58] I think it all lined up today.

[00:31:00] Yeah.

[00:31:00] And, and so if you can be there every time, then eventually they're probably going to end

[00:31:07] up coming in.

[00:31:08] And man, if you can get back to them in five minutes, like our rock stars in our, in our

[00:31:12] patient care center, like if you can follow up and do those things, like again, why reinvent

[00:31:19] the wheel?

[00:31:20] You've given the plans.

[00:31:22] Here's how to build a wheel.

[00:31:24] So just go by the plans.

[00:31:28] And it, it works.

[00:31:30] Yeah.

[00:31:30] I mean, it works.

[00:31:31] Well, I mean, we could uncover so many things and talk in depth about all of this, but,

[00:31:37] you know, being on their point, when, when someone is hot or warm, the last thing you want

[00:31:44] is for them to cool down.

[00:31:45] Yeah.

[00:31:46] It's the same thing with us.

[00:31:48] If there's a doctor ready to go, how unexciting is it to be like, Oh, I can start you next

[00:31:55] month.

[00:31:56] Yeah.

[00:31:56] Yeah.

[00:31:57] Let's schedule a, what day is it?

[00:31:59] Let's schedule our first call in, you know, six weeks.

[00:32:01] And they're like, you know, but I got this itch.

[00:32:05] Right.

[00:32:05] And I want to scratch it.

[00:32:07] And again, I'm not saying all the time this is good.

[00:32:09] I think there are a lot of things with consumer behavior that are actually kind of scary and

[00:32:14] bad.

[00:32:15] Um, you know, this is a, literally a supercomputer, you know, I can literally get almost anything

[00:32:23] I want right now.

[00:32:24] You know, I could literally go on a website and start a conversation probably within two

[00:32:29] minutes and have a prescription on depression, you know, may not be a good thing, but, uh,

[00:32:34] I wish I could get some hair.

[00:32:35] Yeah.

[00:32:36] Yeah.

[00:32:36] Let me, Hey, let me order.

[00:32:37] I got something for that.

[00:32:39] Um, but you know, it can be a really good thing.

[00:32:42] And so you have to kind of, uh, look at it from both sides and just understand, and this

[00:32:50] is the key thing that we tell people, uh, you cannot change consumer behavior as much as

[00:32:56] you may want to, as much as we want to save the world.

[00:32:59] We had a save the world conversation at Waffle House, you know, Oh yeah, we're probably, we're

[00:33:05] probably not going to make any change within those topics.

[00:33:08] Right.

[00:33:08] But we can change what we do to best accommodate the consumer and then bring them into an ethical

[00:33:17] way of doing things, a high quality way, and hopefully an elite way of doing things with

[00:33:22] a great experience versus what happens if they do go to one of these DIYers, you know,

[00:33:29] they definitely accounted for consumer behavior, made it convenient, all these things, but the

[00:33:35] back end is not very solid.

[00:33:38] And so if we don't shift at all, we, we actually don't really care much about the patient because

[00:33:45] what they're going to get is low quality.

[00:33:48] Yeah.

[00:33:48] Being rigid could be forcing people to seek lower quality treatment that could actually

[00:33:54] hurt them because of the rigidity that didn't fit into their model of the world.

[00:33:59] If people could just put the rigidity down a little bit, they'd actually be able to help

[00:34:06] more people.

[00:34:07] Yeah.

[00:34:07] A hundred percent.

[00:34:08] Or you could even say save them from.

[00:34:10] Literally save them.

[00:34:11] Literally save them from the risk of their teeth falling out of their head.

[00:34:14] Yeah.

[00:34:15] All kinds of stuff, surgery, whatever.

[00:34:17] Yeah.

[00:34:18] And don't you want to be the one to treat them if they're going to get any treat, some

[00:34:23] sort of treatment at all.

[00:34:24] Right.

[00:34:24] You know, like even if it's not ideal, if the, if, if, if it's like, look, but I can,

[00:34:30] I can help them.

[00:34:31] I can make them better.

[00:34:32] They will be better when I'm done than when they started.

[00:34:36] And if anyone's going to be able to, to manage that, it's going to be me.

[00:34:41] And I'm speaking on behalf of all the orthodontists out there.

[00:34:44] Like, you know, so, so, and again, there, there, there's a line in the sand that we all

[00:34:48] have that we say, nope, I'm not willing to do that because, because I know there are

[00:34:53] some other consequences to that that you don't understand.

[00:34:55] And I can try to explain it, but I know you seem to be bullheaded about this is what I

[00:34:59] want and I'm sorry, pass.

[00:35:03] But I think there are a lot more that fall in that category of, okay, maybe, maybe I

[00:35:11] can't get you that textbook sort of finish, but I can sure help you, you know, and that,

[00:35:16] that sort of flexibility of saying, I can help you and make sure that you're still going

[00:35:20] to be okay versus going somewhere else where maybe that's not the case.

[00:35:26] Yeah, I would, I'd rather be the person to help them, you know, to that end.

[00:35:32] So it's, it's, it's changed for sure.

[00:35:36] And we had the conversation, you know, before about, there was a doctor that I had worked

[00:35:43] with before and it was his way or the highway and he would kick people out.

[00:35:46] Like if they said, no, I don't know that, you know, we really want to do that.

[00:35:50] He was like, okay, then go somewhere else, but I'm not going to treat you.

[00:35:52] And there was that zero flexibility, totally rigid.

[00:35:55] And, and, you know, he was a great orthodontist.

[00:35:58] I mean, great orthodontist, but there are a lot of people that went probably somewhere

[00:36:03] else that were treated by someone who wasn't as good as he was.

[00:36:08] You know, just because he was unwilling to do anything but his way.

[00:36:13] So one of the optimizations and changes we suggested was a location.

[00:36:20] Talk a little bit about that because, you know, the mindset nowadays, and I don't know

[00:36:26] where this started is just start another location.

[00:36:30] And in theory, that makes a lot of sense, but you have to be ready.

[00:36:35] You have to be prepared to actually produce in that location.

[00:36:41] And so what if I could produce more in fewer locations?

[00:36:44] Do I actually need four or five, 10 locations?

[00:36:48] Yeah.

[00:36:49] And, and my mindset, and I think maybe others as well who kind of go on this multiple location

[00:36:56] journey was, well, if I can get something started and kind of get a foot in the door

[00:37:01] before someone else goes out there, then I can grow it, you know?

[00:37:04] Mm-hmm.

[00:37:05] And so my, my original sort of strategy was let's get a bunch of different locations and

[00:37:13] then we'll grow them instead of let's maximize what we have.

[00:37:17] And, and of course, what surprises me about that is that is the worst way to do it.

[00:37:25] And I'm surprised I didn't see it that it's like, so you're going to maximize your overhead

[00:37:30] and you're not going to have as much income coming.

[00:37:33] Like, so you're going to need more ad spend.

[00:37:35] Right.

[00:37:35] Yeah.

[00:37:35] So like you're literally shrinking your bottom line.

[00:37:39] Yeah.

[00:37:40] Intentionally.

[00:37:40] Like my strategy is to make the least amount of money possible and spend the most on the

[00:37:45] other things that I don't get to enjoy.

[00:37:46] And eventually maybe it'll work out.

[00:37:48] Yeah.

[00:37:48] And, and so that's, you know, in considering the, the significant growth that we've had,

[00:37:56] we closed the location.

[00:38:00] Was it?

[00:38:02] 23?

[00:38:03] 23?

[00:38:04] It was.

[00:38:05] Yeah.

[00:38:05] A year and a half ago?

[00:38:06] Yeah.

[00:38:06] It was like March.

[00:38:07] I think March.

[00:38:09] I don't know.

[00:38:10] But it was last year.

[00:38:11] Yeah.

[00:38:11] It was 20.

[00:38:11] Yeah.

[00:38:12] Yeah.

[00:38:12] Last year.

[00:38:13] So.

[00:38:13] Yeah.

[00:38:14] Year and a half.

[00:38:15] And so, so that was, that was kind of a, as we were assessing, okay, here's, here's what

[00:38:23] you want.

[00:38:24] Here's where you are.

[00:38:26] Let's, let's see why you're not there.

[00:38:29] And kind of going, what is this all about?

[00:38:30] You know, this location that was already in the world.

[00:38:33] Our newest, it was in the fastest growing area in, I'm going to say the county and it

[00:38:39] sounds so country, but I mean, that's like in the county, it's the fastest growing area

[00:38:44] because it wasn't within city limits.

[00:38:46] That's why I said county, not because it's, you know.

[00:38:48] Made a lot of sense.

[00:38:49] Not that there's anything.

[00:38:49] Yeah.

[00:38:50] But anyway.

[00:38:50] Fastest growing the city by the creek.

[00:38:52] Yeah.

[00:38:52] Yeah.

[00:38:52] Down yonder.

[00:38:53] Down yonder.

[00:38:54] Pop pop patch.

[00:38:55] Anyway.

[00:38:56] Yeah.

[00:38:57] So from, on one hand you look at it and go, of course there's neighborhoods getting

[00:39:01] built.

[00:39:01] Possible gold mines.

[00:39:02] Top of each other.

[00:39:03] Yeah.

[00:39:04] Honey hole.

[00:39:04] Little sweet place that like you get in and you're just going to be overrun, which

[00:39:08] is what I thought.

[00:39:10] And it was kind of like barely breaking even, you know?

[00:39:14] And here we, here I was three years in.

[00:39:16] And now granted, I didn't really do much leg work.

[00:39:19] I didn't go around and do all the things that I did when I first got out of school and taking

[00:39:24] Dennis to lunch.

[00:39:25] And I was kind of like, I just don't really want, I don't think I need to here because

[00:39:28] it's growing so fast.

[00:39:29] Right?

[00:39:31] And so as we looked at it and really assessed it, it was like, why don't you shut that down?

[00:39:39] If you shut that down, now you're freed up to go work and get rid of one of your associates.

[00:39:44] Mm-hmm.

[00:39:45] So all of this growth, so we did that and now we don't have overhead of that.

[00:39:51] We don't have all the, you know, there's all this stuff that just doing nothing else,

[00:39:55] I'm making money because I'm not spending it on rent and all these other things that I was

[00:40:00] having to spend those fixed costs.

[00:40:02] So, and you've grown 50% without a location.

[00:40:06] Yeah.

[00:40:07] And I got, well, I had two associates that I do not have anymore.

[00:40:12] So, so it's like, I'm two less associates.

[00:40:15] It's my wife and I, um, one less office and I'm making 50% more.

[00:40:20] Well, we've grown 50%.

[00:40:22] Right, right, right.

[00:40:23] I'm making more than that because overhead, you know, you get rid of two associate salaries

[00:40:27] and you get rid of overhead of location.

[00:40:29] And, um, and so it, yeah, I mean, it, it's, it's that.

[00:40:35] And once you, again, once you see it and you're like, of course, Brad, you idiot.

[00:40:39] Like, like, why are you, why are you doing this?

[00:40:42] You know?

[00:40:42] And when you see it, you feel foolish, you know, cause you guys, I'm sure were like,

[00:40:46] Brad, you idiot.

[00:40:47] Why are you doing this?

[00:40:48] You know?

[00:40:48] But once I, once I could see it myself, it was like, yeah, that just doesn't make any sense.

[00:40:53] Like, let's, let's really maximize the locations we have.

[00:40:58] And, and I will say, I kind of thought like, I don't know that there are that many more patients

[00:41:03] out there for, for us to grow, you know?

[00:41:06] Yeah.

[00:41:06] I mean, I'm sure we can get some more, but, um, again, I don't remember the numbers you guys

[00:41:12] probably do about how much of the population could benefit from ortho or something like there's,

[00:41:18] there's massive, massive amount that goes untreated.

[00:41:20] Yep.

[00:41:21] And, and I think that's where making it affordable and convenient for them, you will start, you

[00:41:31] will start seeing those, all those untreated potential patients coming in and starting treatment.

[00:41:37] And, and, uh, and so those are things that I don't want to give away what I think is the

[00:41:44] greatest part of that.

[00:41:46] They can contact.

[00:41:47] Not yet.

[00:41:47] Yeah.

[00:41:48] They can, they can contact you guys.

[00:41:49] Wait till the last five seconds.

[00:41:51] That's right.

[00:41:52] Yeah.

[00:41:52] At the very end.

[00:41:54] In the next episode.

[00:41:55] Yeah.

[00:41:57] Yeah.

[00:41:57] Yeah.

[00:41:58] Um, but it, it, it, it's so interesting because there's so many people, even who we work with.

[00:42:05] I just talked to a guy this week.

[00:42:07] Um, and it's the opposite of what actually works.

[00:42:14] The cool thing about where you were and, and it was a timing thing, I think with us and

[00:42:20] you, where it was just perfect timing, a good fit is you were very open to a different perspective.

[00:42:28] You were open to being adaptable and many people aren't.

[00:42:33] And then our hands are tied and it's back to the front end of things of marketing.

[00:42:39] Well, just go make a new ad or spend more in ad spend.

[00:42:43] And it's like, you're not getting the point.

[00:42:46] You have to have the right backend for the front end to work.

[00:42:51] You know, there's a hundred, a thousand, a million different ways to market the practice,

[00:42:59] the modality, the treatment, the offer.

[00:43:02] If you don't have the, the backend for it to work, it doesn't matter how great the marketing is.

[00:43:08] That actually turns into somewhat of a scam, you know, cause you know, your marketing,

[00:43:14] we have the best, this, this location will get you in, you know, offer.

[00:43:19] Yep.

[00:43:19] Nobody called me back.

[00:43:20] Yeah.

[00:43:20] You know, couldn't get in.

[00:43:22] Uh, it turns out the doctor only goes to that location once every 60 days, once every

[00:43:27] six months.

[00:43:28] They said they could get me in conveniently, quickly on the ad, you know?

[00:43:32] And so then over time that actually starts to do damage.

[00:43:36] Yes.

[00:43:37] In the market.

[00:43:38] And that's what you had said.

[00:43:39] Yeah.

[00:43:39] You get all these patients coming in and then you can't take care of them like they should

[00:43:44] be.

[00:43:45] And they're going to now go out and start saying negative things, you know, and it's

[00:43:48] going to be a bad thing.

[00:43:49] And so that was like, you know, we need to get you set up so that when they do come,

[00:43:53] when they do contact you, you can provide what you want to provide for them.

[00:43:57] So there's positive sort of chatter out there.

[00:44:00] And, you know, I was trying to think of, I was trying to think of a good analogy for

[00:44:05] how I feel like our relationship started like with the, okay, you guys kept tapping, tapping,

[00:44:14] touching, touching, whatever.

[00:44:15] And it was like, okay, after six or seven times, it was like, okay, I'll like, all right, let's

[00:44:20] talk, let's, you know, and, and, uh, and then it's like when somebody comes into the office

[00:44:26] and I was trying to think of something that was not just orthodontic related, but I think

[00:44:30] it's, I think it's a really good sort of parallel.

[00:44:35] Someone comes in for an orthodontic exam and they sit in the chair.

[00:44:40] They have some perio, their brushing is maybe terrible.

[00:44:42] Maybe they have some obvious decay, some things.

[00:44:46] And they're like, I want braces on my teeth straight.

[00:44:49] I could say, okay, yeah, let's, let's do this.

[00:44:53] And Hey, you've got some other like stuff that you need to take care of, but let's go

[00:44:57] ahead and get braces on you.

[00:44:59] And what I say is, Hey, you know what?

[00:45:02] Your overall oral health is more important than, than what I do.

[00:45:06] So let's, let's get that taken care of first and then I can do what I do for you.

[00:45:13] And, and it's going to be an advantage, you know?

[00:45:15] And I felt like that was kind of what you guys did was like, Hey, you've got some other

[00:45:20] things going on before we really do what we can do for you.

[00:45:23] Like you've got some other things that we need to take care of first.

[00:45:26] You know, you need to get an org chart and some people in these places and a call.

[00:45:30] So like, it was, it was kind of like, I felt like you're, you're looking out for what's

[00:45:35] the health of your practice.

[00:45:36] What's going to really benefit you on a, on a large scale instead of just, we can do

[00:45:42] what we can do for you.

[00:45:43] And Oh, well we're doing our part.

[00:45:44] So if you can't figure it out, then sorry, you know?

[00:45:48] And so I think that really kind of resonated with me that, okay, they're right.

[00:45:55] Like they're doing what I do, what I would hope someone would do for my family if they

[00:45:59] want, which is let's get everything else right.

[00:46:02] Let's get you set up with a good solid foundation before then I can come in or we can come in

[00:46:07] and really see the results that we know we can get, you know?

[00:46:11] And, and, and that was kind of like, you could have just said, good.

[00:46:17] Yeah.

[00:46:17] Let's get this website.

[00:46:18] Let's start like getting these ads out there.

[00:46:19] And, you know, if it doesn't work and I think that's maybe, maybe that's what kind of prompted

[00:46:25] you guys to even go into the kind of consulting side was seeing, Hey, there's some offices

[00:46:29] that need some help that don't really know, you know, they have good intentions, but they

[00:46:33] don't know what they don't know.

[00:46:36] But I felt like that's kind of what you guys did for me was, was looked at it all and said,

[00:46:43] okay, great.

[00:46:44] We can do this, but you got to take care of this first.

[00:46:46] These priorities.

[00:46:47] Yeah.

[00:46:48] It's interesting.

[00:46:49] The parallel to that is the other day, somebody was telling me, you know, yeah, this doctor

[00:46:55] said it, you know, they're holistic.

[00:46:57] It's holistic.

[00:46:59] Shouldn't every doctor be holistic, you know, like you're, you're looking at it, but you know,

[00:47:05] we're not trained to do that.

[00:47:06] And, and with marketing and being a marketing agency and where we adapted from that is this

[00:47:13] doesn't work all the time.

[00:47:14] You know, sometimes it does and that's great.

[00:47:17] And with you, you know, it may have worked a little bit and you'd be up, you know, five,

[00:47:21] 10%, maybe 20%, whatever.

[00:47:24] But to be able to, to be up 50% in a, a downturn.

[00:47:30] Yeah.

[00:47:30] Um, you know, you have to look at things more holistically and, uh, so many more situations

[00:47:37] are coming to mind as we talk about this, like, oh, I need to go do this thing and communicate

[00:47:40] this to this doctor.

[00:47:43] And there has to be an openness, you know, uh, because if you weren't open to it, it's

[00:47:49] like, well, you know.

[00:47:51] Well, and again, going back to the ortho analogy, okay, we're ready to start.

[00:47:54] Let's get going.

[00:47:55] Okay.

[00:47:57] I can't do it all.

[00:47:58] It's a team effort.

[00:47:59] If my patients aren't keeping up their hygiene, wearing their elastics, you know, avoiding

[00:48:03] foods that break the brackets off.

[00:48:04] Like if they're unwilling to change their behavior and, and do what I'm asking them

[00:48:08] to do, we won't get the results that we should get, you know?

[00:48:12] And similarly, you guys can say all day long, like, you, you know, you really need to do

[00:48:19] this.

[00:48:19] These, these things need to happen.

[00:48:20] But if they're not willing to do those things, the results aren't going to be what they could

[00:48:25] be.

[00:48:25] And so that ongoing, even after you start treatment, you know, and, and you, you enter a relationship

[00:48:32] with, with a partnership with, with a doctor, like, or an office, it's, you have to be willing

[00:48:38] to do, to do the work, you know, and to, to be accountable and, and listen to someone who

[00:48:44] knows better.

[00:48:46] And that was, I was certainly at the point where I was like, okay, well, things were okay,

[00:48:50] you know?

[00:48:51] And it was like, we were doing fine, but it wasn't what I wanted, you know, I really wanted

[00:48:56] it to be more.

[00:48:57] And, and I, and it's also this sort of, you got to spend money to make money, you know?

[00:49:05] And that was something that I fought.

[00:49:06] But it's like, but I want to make it first, then I'll spend it.

[00:49:09] You know, once I make it, then I'll have more to spend and I could spend, you know, and

[00:49:13] Coming from the guy that opens all the locations first.

[00:49:15] I mean, why would anybody spend money without it?

[00:49:18] You know, and, and yeah, twisted.

[00:49:21] But, but yeah, I think that, that, that whole sort of willingness to say, I've done it the

[00:49:30] way I think it should be done and I'm not where I want to be.

[00:49:33] So if I'm going to bring in some experts, then I'm going to listen and do whatever they

[00:49:38] say, because I'm going to trust that they're experts for a reason.

[00:49:43] And certainly you guys had the pedigree that we've kind of worked with some decent practices

[00:49:50] around the country.

[00:49:51] And, and so it's like, okay, if again, why reinvent the wheel?

[00:49:57] Let's, let's just do everything they say.

[00:49:59] And I, and then we'll see, you know, if it works to be determined.

[00:50:03] So how is the team feeling about all this?

[00:50:06] You know, a lot of changes sounds like mostly for the better, but I'm sure there's been,

[00:50:12] you know, some challenges and then there needs, there has to be openness with the team for

[00:50:17] you to be able to do this stuff.

[00:50:18] For sure.

[00:50:19] And they're, they're awesome.

[00:50:20] I mean, we have, of course, everybody thinks they have the best team, but like we have some

[00:50:27] fantastic members on the team that are, that are like, we'll, we'll do what you ask us to

[00:50:33] do, you know?

[00:50:34] And of course it needs to make sense.

[00:50:36] Change is always hard.

[00:50:37] So there, there have been some things where it's like, push back a little bit with the same

[00:50:43] day starts and some things like that.

[00:50:45] But, but when, when I reiterate, Hey, but we're going to get more help so that you're

[00:50:52] not having to do what you're doing and then adding on some same day starts in between, we'll

[00:50:56] have the personnel to be able to handle that.

[00:51:00] Another, another kind of thing that we're still going through quite honestly is going back

[00:51:06] to the org chart and, and having people's people that are being put in leadership roles,

[00:51:11] like, okay, when you go from, Hey, we're, we do the same thing.

[00:51:15] All of a sudden now somehow I'm supposed to like listen to you and do that.

[00:51:20] Like that's a, that's a tough ask.

[00:51:22] And, and understandably so that can be challenging to go.

[00:51:26] Why should, you know, and it's not, they're not boss, but their leadership, there's somebody

[00:51:33] that can correct and, and discuss certain things that need to improve.

[00:51:38] And, and so that's, that's still sort of a, it's happening in some spots.

[00:51:44] It's a little fluid.

[00:51:45] It's a little bit like, you know, why, why her, why not me?

[00:51:50] That sort of thing.

[00:51:53] But that's part of it.

[00:51:54] Cause then everyone else that comes in after that's who that person is.

[00:51:58] So, so you don't have that same cause that is roles already established.

[00:52:02] And so there has to be some of those sort of uncomfortable growth and, and it's, it's part

[00:52:13] of setting it up right as you're not maintaining the status quo.

[00:52:17] And so I don't, I don't feel like it's anything that has been detrimental to the, you know, feel

[00:52:24] in the, in the office at all.

[00:52:25] Yeah.

[00:52:25] And with the right team members, as you grow, I mean, I think it must be pretty exciting

[00:52:31] to know that they can grow with you.

[00:52:33] Yeah.

[00:52:34] You know, it gives them, it gives them motivation to, to keep out, Hey, if I can work myself

[00:52:39] up into one of these leadership roles at some point, like, um, you know, feeling like there

[00:52:44] is actually more in the future.

[00:52:48] Hey, we can grow together and, and, you know.

[00:52:50] And as the practice grows, more roles open up.

[00:52:53] Right.

[00:52:53] Right.

[00:52:53] There's actually a pathway to growth or promotion.

[00:52:56] Yeah.

[00:52:57] Yeah.

[00:52:57] Yeah.

[00:52:58] It becomes exciting versus, well, go to, you know, work another day and not much happening

[00:53:05] and just do it.

[00:53:06] But to be part of a practice that is growing like you are, I mean.

[00:53:10] People want to be part of a winning team.

[00:53:12] Yeah.

[00:53:13] A hundred percent.

[00:53:14] Yeah.

[00:53:15] You know, nobody's really excited to play for the Jets right now.

[00:53:18] Yeah.

[00:53:19] Except Aaron Rodgers.

[00:53:20] Yeah.

[00:53:20] No, he's not.

[00:53:21] He got their coach fired.

[00:53:24] Did they win last night?

[00:53:25] I didn't see the end.

[00:53:26] Yeah.

[00:53:26] I don't think so.

[00:53:27] Probably not.

[00:53:28] It's terrible.

[00:53:32] Well, we also did, we've got a, an incentive system that I will say I think is the best

[00:53:37] that I've ever tried.

[00:53:38] And it's super simple.

[00:53:39] I can't take credit for, for it.

[00:53:41] I read it in some forum somewhere that, um, as people were talking about it, we tried

[00:53:47] all different kinds of things, percentages of, you know, for 15% more, you know, over

[00:53:53] the same year or same month last year.

[00:53:55] And, you know, it was all these things that seemed super complicated and whatever.

[00:53:58] And this one is once every, for, uh, for our office, the number was 61, you know, every

[00:54:05] 60 starts, everybody gets X number of dollars.

[00:54:11] Once they get 60, it starts all over.

[00:54:13] So, so you can have potentially two, two bonuses in a month.

[00:54:19] Like if you had one that, you know, in other words, if you had, it started in the middle

[00:54:24] of last month, you catch it the first part of this month and then you're really blowing

[00:54:29] and going and, and you catch another one at the end of that month.

[00:54:32] Like, so it's not based on anything except number of starts.

[00:54:36] That's pretty cool.

[00:54:37] And so, so they know when, when 60 hits, we already have the next like paper up on

[00:54:43] the fridge in the, in the lounge.

[00:54:45] Like the, as of this date, you know, this many start, you know, and you just see it.

[00:54:50] So everyone can see it.

[00:54:51] It's super simple and they can be motivated.

[00:54:55] Let's get the next one sooner.

[00:54:56] You know, let's get the next one.

[00:54:57] There's no like, okay, well we got a goal for this month.

[00:55:00] So let's just shut it all down.

[00:55:01] And, or we're never going to make it this month.

[00:55:04] So why, why try?

[00:55:06] It's continually going.

[00:55:07] You don't hit it halfway through the month.

[00:55:08] It's restart every single time.

[00:55:10] Yeah.

[00:55:11] So I like that.

[00:55:12] Yeah.

[00:55:12] Me too.

[00:55:13] Yeah.

[00:55:13] Anyway.

[00:55:15] Very cool.

[00:55:15] Yeah.

[00:55:17] How much we've seen you grow, Dr. Brad.

[00:55:20] I know it's your favorite name.

[00:55:22] Yeah.

[00:55:23] I remember when we were first working, the first milestone was trying to get you to do more

[00:55:28] than four exams in a day.

[00:55:29] Yeah.

[00:55:30] And I mean, you were like, I don't know how I'm going to take this to the team just to

[00:55:35] get to six.

[00:55:36] They're going to lose it.

[00:55:37] And it's not that you had a really long exam.

[00:55:40] Yeah.

[00:55:41] You know?

[00:55:41] They weren't long and there weren't a lot of them.

[00:55:44] Yeah.

[00:55:46] Makes sense, right?

[00:55:47] Let's spread them out.

[00:55:49] You know, let's make them short and spread them out.

[00:55:50] I remember once you put it up to six, you were like, really?

[00:55:54] We're fine.

[00:55:55] Yeah.

[00:55:56] Nobody's good.

[00:55:56] Okay.

[00:55:57] This is another great point.

[00:55:58] I was talking to a guy, orthodontist, about, well, this conversation started a year ago.

[00:56:07] Let's go ahead and implement these things.

[00:56:09] Let's go ahead and we went there and it was taking two hours to do a debond.

[00:56:14] No, bond.

[00:56:15] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[00:56:16] Either way.

[00:56:17] No, braces were coming off, remember, from that one.

[00:56:20] Oh, he was doing both.

[00:56:21] Either way.

[00:56:21] It was a two-hour debond and a two-hour bonding.

[00:56:24] Two hours.

[00:56:25] And then, you know, this exam that could have been easy, really the patient wasn't, couldn't

[00:56:32] be in treatment.

[00:56:34] They drug out and she can wait, you know, and then.

[00:56:38] And she's sitting for like an hour?

[00:56:39] Yeah, she went out in the parking lot and got something out of her car, you know, after

[00:56:44] 30 minutes.

[00:56:44] And they're like, where is she?

[00:56:46] And it's like, well, you made her wait for 30.

[00:56:47] And so then it didn't work out.

[00:56:48] They had to make her wait longer.

[00:56:50] And it's like, man, we are not efficient at all.

[00:56:54] Let's change all these things.

[00:56:56] Well, kind of want to be forced to make the changes.

[00:57:00] You know, want the marketing to work really well.

[00:57:02] And then, you know, when push comes to shove, then we'll make the changes.

[00:57:07] And it's like, but if you make the changes now, it's like cause and effect.

[00:57:11] Yeah.

[00:57:12] You move some things out of the way and you get more efficient.

[00:57:15] The flow, all of a sudden you go, oh, the patient demand was already there.

[00:57:22] It just wasn't flowing into my practice.

[00:57:26] You know, then.

[00:57:27] There's a kink in the hose.

[00:57:28] Who wants to make decisions under duress?

[00:57:31] Let's wait till we have to.

[00:57:33] And everyone's frazzled and has no patience and can only like hang on by a thread.

[00:57:38] Then let's change everything.

[00:57:39] For people who crave efficiency.

[00:57:41] Now, again, if I'm not open to change, it makes sense.

[00:57:46] Because if I'm in a comfort zone, then, you know, trying to force people out of their comfort zone is just really tough.

[00:57:54] You know, we could talk about that for.

[00:57:57] Fight like hell to stay in the comfort zone.

[00:57:59] And to be honest, like that was kind of me with the spending on marketing.

[00:58:03] I was that like, well, I don't want to spend more till I make more, you know?

[00:58:07] And so, you know, okay.

[00:58:09] He's awesome.

[00:58:10] Yeah.

[00:58:10] This vicious cycle.

[00:58:12] Yeah.

[00:58:13] He will be.

[00:58:15] He's a great guy.

[00:58:16] This vicious cycle happens where it's like, you know, I want to be forced or I want to see the growth so then we can make the change.

[00:58:25] So, yeah, marketing.

[00:58:26] And you're getting it backwards.

[00:58:29] We've got to change everything now because guess what?

[00:58:32] Now, I'm going to ask for your phone stats and it turns out you're missing 30% of phone calls.

[00:58:38] So, we don't actually need to do marketing.

[00:58:41] Now, it's great.

[00:58:43] It helps a lot of people.

[00:58:45] But we need to actually just catch the momentum, you know?

[00:58:49] And it is so hard for people, even in my own business, you know, when you bring somebody in and you have them looking at it from a different perspective, they're going to see things, catch things, pick up on things that we just don't because we're so in it.

[00:59:05] But if I'm not open to the feedback, if I'm not adaptable, flexible, what am I doing?

[00:59:12] Yeah.

[00:59:13] You know?

[00:59:13] Well, and I think sometimes people look at numbers like, there's no way you can do 10 exams in a day and do them well or whatever.

[00:59:22] And it's like, how many words a minute can you type?

[00:59:26] Because you know what?

[00:59:27] You would say, oh, I can type 40 words a minute.

[00:59:29] Like the world record is like over 200 on a regular keyboard.

[00:59:32] Now they have these different keywords.

[00:59:35] But I mean, accurate.

[00:59:37] Like it's 97% accurate.

[00:59:38] There's some sort of thing, you know?

[00:59:39] And it's like people can do things.

[00:59:42] People can do things really well a lot faster.

[00:59:47] And that doesn't mean, like if you, whether it's patients a day, exams a day, whatever, there's no way you could see that many and still be doing a good job.

[00:59:55] Well, just because you can't or you don't think you can doesn't mean someone else can't, you know?

[01:00:00] You can't type as fast as that woman who has the whole, the world record, but she's doing it.

[01:00:05] She's doing it accurately.

[01:00:07] Yeah.

[01:00:07] Because she's different than you, you know?

[01:00:09] And so there's, there's a lot of.

[01:00:11] There's a process.

[01:00:12] That's a great analogy.

[01:00:12] They got her there.

[01:00:14] Right.

[01:00:15] Yeah.

[01:00:15] And, and so I think being open to, I've always been of the mindset, well, if she can type 212, I can type 212.

[01:00:23] I just need to, how do I need to get there?

[01:00:25] You know, like, like no one can, if someone else can do it, I can do it.

[01:00:29] And that was kind of the fishmine thing is like, well, if they can do this.

[01:00:32] Yeah.

[01:00:32] I can do this.

[01:00:33] My team's good.

[01:00:34] Like we can, we can make this happen.

[01:00:36] And, and so, but again, it, it, it means you have to say, what do I need to do to get there then?

[01:00:43] You know, if that's where I want to be, then what do I need to do?

[01:00:46] And, and if that's not, and everyone's goals aren't the same.

[01:00:49] So, and that's great.

[01:00:50] You know, we all, we all have our own picture of what our practice in our life, you know, what we want it to be.

[01:00:57] Um, but don't, you know, throw shade on somebody that is doing something differently and saying, well, that can't, they can't be doing a good job if they're doing that because I can't, you know, I can't see that many patients today.

[01:01:11] I can't go into an exam and be in there for three minutes and the patient.

[01:01:16] Well, you're right.

[01:01:17] You're probably right.

[01:01:18] Like, yeah.

[01:01:19] If you say you can't, then you're probably right.

[01:01:21] Yeah.

[01:01:22] I'm not going to argue with that.

[01:01:23] I mean, Dr. Thomas made a great point on our lecture at MOPC, um, where he said, as he's grown, he feels like he's even doing better clinical work for two reasons.

[01:01:36] One, because he's not seeing a patient and then going back to his office and sitting.

[01:01:42] He's like, he said, he's in a flow state all day.

[01:01:45] He's like, I'd rather have frigging 15 bondings all day, just in my flow state.

[01:01:50] And he goes, but as I've grown and I've put more leadership roles in place, my time's not getting pulled on.

[01:01:57] I think of the story of you trying to fix the roof leak in between patients.

[01:02:00] He goes, I'm not getting pulled to go fix a roof leak or change a light bulb and break my flow state of clinical work.

[01:02:08] He's like, I'm just seeing patients all day.

[01:02:10] Yeah.

[01:02:10] All day.

[01:02:11] And I'm doing better work at more volume because of the protection I have of my time with our systems.

[01:02:17] Then more money to invest in better technology.

[01:02:20] And it's just this positive cycle.

[01:02:23] You know, I had a call the other day and this guy asked me, he goes, all right, man.

[01:02:28] So what, what's your secret sauce?

[01:02:30] What's the magic sauce?

[01:02:32] And I said, there's no magic sauce.

[01:02:34] It's two things.

[01:02:36] Um, you need to be open-minded and teachable and it's hard work.

[01:02:41] If we're not willing to do the hard work and we're not open-minded and teachable, I don't have any magic.

[01:02:47] But if you do have those things, look at the rabbit, you know?

[01:02:50] Yeah.

[01:02:51] Well, I remember you guys talking about easy growers.

[01:02:54] I was like, I want to be one of those.

[01:02:58] I want to be an easy grower.

[01:02:59] They should say that about me.

[01:03:00] I was visiting you.

[01:03:01] You were reading the yellow book in your office.

[01:03:03] And I remember, I'll never forget this.

[01:03:05] Look, you looked up at me and you're like, I think this book is written about me.

[01:03:08] Yeah.

[01:03:09] Yeah.

[01:03:10] I mean, it was, it was like you were speaking directly to me and where I was like.

[01:03:14] Yes, sir.

[01:03:15] Okay.

[01:03:16] Yeah.

[01:03:17] I wrote it right after we visited you.

[01:03:23] May or may not be true.

[01:03:25] I mean.

[01:03:26] Yeah.

[01:03:27] What, what do you say?

[01:03:28] Cause you know, you, you and I had a conversation a couple months ago about, uh, you know, we'll

[01:03:33] have people call you and it was very reassuring.

[01:03:38] Assuring why we're having, you know, by the way, can you, can you take more, take more

[01:03:43] calls?

[01:03:44] What do you tell people when they call and like, okay, what, what's it going to be like

[01:03:47] with hip?

[01:03:49] Um, kind of what Harrison said, you know, it's like, look, these guys are experts in their

[01:03:56] field.

[01:03:56] Like they know what they're doing.

[01:03:58] They, they have a proven track record.

[01:04:00] And, and so this is not, there is no like secret sauce of, oh, they're going to, they're

[01:04:07] going to bring you behind the curtain and, you know, whispering in your eyes, you know,

[01:04:11] it's like, oh, and there's like, oh, you know, and then all of a sudden you're going to,

[01:04:14] you know, I wish it was that easy.

[01:04:16] Yeah.

[01:04:16] I mean, but, but what I say is they will tell, they will tell you where the weaknesses

[01:04:24] are in your practice.

[01:04:25] Like what, what you need to improve on, what you need to have set up to then accommodate

[01:04:31] the growth that will be coming your way.

[01:04:35] And, and I think, you know, you hit a good point earlier, Luke, some of that growth is

[01:04:39] not growth.

[01:04:40] That's just driven from marketing.

[01:04:41] It's just capturing the people who are already wanting to come see you that you have missed

[01:04:46] because of flaws in your system.

[01:04:48] And so it's like, you've got to be willing to listen and put the work in to implement.

[01:04:56] And, and when it's like, well, I mean, I don't, I don't really know.

[01:05:01] And then, you know, I don't know if the team is going to be, it's like,

[01:05:04] then you're, then, then it's not going to happen.

[01:05:06] Like you can't keep doing things the same way and expect different results.

[01:05:11] So that's, I've, I have done it and it has worked.

[01:05:18] These other offices in the country have done it and it has worked.

[01:05:23] So what more do you need than that?

[01:05:27] Like, I can't tell you anymore.

[01:05:29] I'm not going to, there's no like, okay, well, if you,

[01:05:33] put this scented candle on your front desk, everyone's going to,

[01:05:37] all of a sudden decide they're going to start with you.

[01:05:39] I mean, there's no like one little thing.

[01:05:41] It's a Facebook funnel.

[01:05:43] It's fun.

[01:05:44] Wait till you see this funnel.

[01:05:46] Yeah.

[01:05:46] I mean, magic, sales magic, magic candle.

[01:05:50] But that's what I try to, I mean, that's what I say is if you do, if you do what they say,

[01:05:57] you will see growth.

[01:05:59] Like I'm not going to, you know, well, you know, I mean, how much, like how much, you

[01:06:03] know, it's like, that depends on you.

[01:06:05] It depends on the work you put in.

[01:06:07] And like, so there's no sort of, well, you'll see at least this percentage of growth.

[01:06:12] Like I would never say that because I don't know.

[01:06:14] And quite honestly, I don't know that person to know what they're willing to do, what they're

[01:06:18] not willing to do.

[01:06:18] But if you do it, you will grow and you'll probably see really significant growth if you

[01:06:24] are willing to put the work in.

[01:06:26] Yeah.

[01:06:27] If you wear your rubber bands.

[01:06:29] Yeah.

[01:06:30] Typically works out.

[01:06:31] And the teeth don't lie.

[01:06:32] Yeah.

[01:06:32] You know, you can tell me all day long, well, I see them with them in.

[01:06:36] Oh yeah.

[01:06:37] I wear them, wear them all the time.

[01:06:39] Teeth don't lie.

[01:06:39] It's a biological response.

[01:06:41] If they're in there, they have to move.

[01:06:43] They don't get a choice.

[01:06:45] Similarly, the stats don't lie.

[01:06:47] Yeah.

[01:06:47] You can tell me, oh, we pick up the phone.

[01:06:49] We respond all like, well, if you didn't do it in the three secret shoppers and that

[01:06:54] you're telling me it happens to be the days that you didn't, you weren't doing it.

[01:06:58] You know, it's like when the people come in, it's supposed to be wearing the retainers

[01:07:00] full time, you know, where's your retainer?

[01:07:02] Oh, I forgot it.

[01:07:04] Well, you're supposed to be wearing it all the time.

[01:07:06] Oh yeah.

[01:07:06] This morning I accidentally took it out, you know, after, you know, after brushing my teeth

[01:07:10] and then I didn't, I didn't, you know, yeah, today I forgot.

[01:07:14] Sure.

[01:07:15] Sure.

[01:07:15] Today is the one day that you forgot it when you came to see your orthodontist, you know?

[01:07:19] So, you know, it's, I'm sure you guys go through very similar sort of things like,

[01:07:23] oh, we're doing everything.

[01:07:24] No, never.

[01:07:25] Yeah.

[01:07:26] It's your fault.

[01:07:27] Yeah.

[01:07:28] Yeah.

[01:07:28] Dr. Brad or should I say?

[01:07:31] Dr. Jacobs.

[01:07:31] Dr. Jacobs.

[01:07:32] Just Brad.

[01:07:33] Yeah, Brad.

[01:07:34] Just Brad.

[01:07:35] Thanks for, thanks for flying here, being here today.

[01:07:37] Yeah, thanks for having me guys.

[01:07:38] Definitely.

[01:07:38] And thanks for everything that you've done to help me have the practice that I've always

[01:07:43] wanted.

[01:07:44] Yeah.

[01:07:44] It's been fun.

[01:07:45] Yeah.

[01:07:45] It's been a pleasure.

[01:07:46] More to come.

[01:07:47] Yeah.

[01:07:47] Super fun.

[01:07:47] For sure.

[01:07:48] Yeah.

[01:07:48] We're not done.

[01:07:49] Yeah.

[01:07:49] Awesome.

[01:07:50] Cool.

[01:07:50] Thank you.

[01:07:51] Yep.

[01:07:51] Yep.